Karen Richards: Okay, so the first episode of Culture Fuel, and I am absolutely delighted to welcome. my client, and my friend, Brian Baker, Chief People Officer at Teneo. Hi, Brian. Brian Baker: Hi Karen, good to see you and great to be with you. And I think there always comes a certain pressure when you're first, but that's okay. I will gladly take it on. I hope I do you proud. Karen Richards: Well, thank you for that. Brian's referring to the fact that I've just let him know that this is the first in what I hope will be a great series and he's setting the bar. So fantastic. Brian, I particularly wanted to do this first one with you because. I've seen you in action, uh, I've had the privilege of getting inside your mind a little bit, not only with the work that you do for Teneo and with Teneo, but also your broader views on culture and how critical it is. And already I'm massively off script here, so I'm sure I'm going to get terribly told off by everyone, but we'll go with this. And I guess the place I'd like to start is just to share with us a little bit about your role at Teneo, what Teneo do for the audience, and the role then that you play supporting that. Brian Baker: Yeah, great. We are an advisory firm where I think we focus primarily on the CEO, the C-suite, and their agenda. And really, our ambition is to be the number one critical issues advisory firm for CEOs, boards, and leaders. And it was really fun. I was with a colleague of mine at a meeting with other CHROs and we were sharing some of our data. We do a report that focuses on institutional investors and CEOs and what's on their mind. And my colleague was like, we're the kind of company that if the CEO's up at night, they call us to help them. And I thought that was like a fun way to think about the impact and really the intellectual horsepower we bring. to advising organizations, whether it be on financial and financial performance matters, whether it be around reputation, investor relations, IPOs, strategic situations that companies also face. whether it be around consulting, advisory services there, risk, security, um, you know, there's a… there is a deep expert inside of the Teneo landscape that can help anyone. Karen Richards: So, thinking about that then, and thinking about that deep expert and expertise, and also the fact that we're in a constant state of flux in the world of work, business, life in general, how does that then influence and impact how you approach your role? Which is to look after the teams, and the leaders looking after the leaders and their teams. Brian Baker: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I really think of my job as looking after the people, like you just said, but also around creating the conditions for those people to be successful. And I would say like… Something that's probably a little different about my background that I hope adds a lot of positive and distinctive qualities. activity and outcome and how I approach it is that I've served clients before, so I'm not a native HR person. I don't have a traditional grow-up-in-the-function kind of path. I started with a 10-year, sort of what I think of as classic American big business background at IBM. And I had the chance to work across all different kinds of parts of that company, whether it be software, services, sales, marketing, corporate. Just to name a few. But I had the chance to sort of, you know, really see many corners of a turnaround, a change in strategy, a massive disruption, all sorts of things. My career has really been about transformation and change and how people are really the success factor, the secret sauce in doing that well. And when I… What inspired me about Teneo wasn't only the success story of this company. It wasn't only the connection I had to Paul and people like Ursula Burns as our chairwoman as part of the process. It was truly. the kind of invaluable work we do for our clients. In hearing and knowing clients of this company, and when doing my diligence, as any candidate or company would do. hearing those people say how this company helped them, in a moment where they had a number of choices, choose the right choice. And, um, that's the kind of… like, we all want to be part of a winning team, and I think that's what we often forget. Whether we're talking about performance or this or that, like people wanna be, they wanna win and they wanna win together. Karen Richards: Absolutely. So, I mean, that's a great segue into that sort of performance versus culture bit. Tell me a bit about your views around that. I mean, I have seen you in action in a boardroom. doing a fantastic job talking to a team about how their cultural dynamic is so critical to the success of the business. Share with us a bit more your thoughts and your views around that, and how you bring that then to Teneo. Brian Baker: The differentiator, I think, is really about can the people inside those organizations execute at speed? Do they have the freedom to make decisions and make good decisions? Do they operate well under pressure? And can they stay stuck together and aligned around what matters most? So, like, that's really sort of, like, a long-winded way of, like, the conditions of enabling performance are really about clarity, trust, accountability, and adaptability. When I stood up when I got here, I said, you cannot have a culture unless you also have consequences and consistency. And that means when you go out of the lane around the expected values and behaviors and what it means to be a leader, that there's a consequence for that. And it also means that the things we say. are truly felt and delivered on in a consistent way. I learned in my own consulting career serving clients, and I attribute a client of mine to really helping me see this, the only way to win hearts and minds is through consistency. And so I bring all this back. People need to feel and understand where the business is going. They need to have real clarity on what success looks like for them, and they need to believe that their personal contribution to it matters. Karen Richards: Yeah. So. Brian Baker: And leaders, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, but the role that leaders play as people leaders is so important in this. Karen Richards: Well, I guess there's a… I mean, there's a number of different tangents we could take from that, both from, you know, where do you see great examples where it's worked well, without naming names, maybe see some examples where it's not worked so well, and that pressure element that then brings it in. You know, it's the pressure that disables, if you like. what a leadership team knows it wants to do, can do, has sometimes do, but it can… it can disable that consistency. And it also can really ratchet up the imbalance of consequence, which then can drive the fear, which then obviously can quite often become quite a demotivating and… effectively take the business completely in the wrong direction. How do you… how do you observe that playing out, and then how do you help those leaders when that pressure really is starting to impact? How… what's your approach to that? Brian Baker: I think we are in a space where anyone who could give you some overly simplistic ABC or one, two, three on this is probably not in touch with all the competing forces. So like you say, what any given team could… could be working on today could radically shift, whether it be driven by the environmental, business landscape, the client demand, or maybe somebody out of somewhere that we didn't expect had a better idea that we need to further interrogate. So, I think, like, number one is just understanding how. Really, really well. So when I think of the best examples of this, it looks like a leader who knows themselves really well, good, bad and ugly. And then in these moments of crisis, destabilization change. or deep questioning. They know and remind themselves that it's not about them. They have to get these other people down the road, down to the mission, and to keep them unified together. And I think as individual contributors or as. team members in that, you need to feel like you have the safety to bring maybe what is a better idea. You can call out when something isn't working. You need the ability to be your authentic self. when you need a moan, as my friends on your side of the pond say, or when you're frustrated by something, and that those things can play out for good, and that we can be heard, and then we can get back to what that mission is. I think about, you know, when it works really well is like the sort of nature of the constellation of the team and the group has that kind of clarity, has that regular touch base. There's freedom to ask, to suggest, to innovate and iterate. and that there is some sort of, like, reward for doing that. And when it doesn't work well is, I think, when, um, the destabilization, sometimes the emotion, the fear, cloud. the mission. Karen Richards: I mean, it's a great… as you know, my passion is emotional intelligence and leadership, and, you know, I will always work with leaders on the premise that you have to know thyself. We have to understand. what we're feeling, what we're thinking, how that's impacting us, and therefore, potentially, how that's impacting others around us. And if our job as leaders is to perform and deliver with and through others, and you are the person at the top of that, leading that team, leading that organization. You have to accept the fact that the selflessness in that moment of heightened emotion, you know, concerns, um, underperformance, whatever it may be, personal pressures, it doesn't necessarily have to be work, it can be personal pressures as well. how is that impacting you, and understand the knock-on effect that that has. And I see so many examples of that. On the data side of it, very interestingly, I was working with someone last week. Who had quite a story, and that story definitely played out in their EQ, with one exception. One of the things that we measure is your emotional self-awareness, and the emotional self-awareness was in a fabulous place. It was everything else that wasn't. because there was something there. And when you can help people to understand that it's all within their gift, particularly individuals who are leading, who are under pressure, who know that they need to. turn up to work, turn up in an environment, perform in a certain way, but they don't always have the tools to do that. I think that's very powerful, and then leads very nicely into where you started, which is around the reality check. If you… If you don't understand the reality of a situation, the chances are you don't have all the data, all the information, all of the necessary components to make the best informed decision. How can we get the best outcome if we don't have as many components as possible? So that reality check and then come up with the right elements and solutions to the challenges that you face. I love that and I love the fact that certainly in my role I get to. In a very confidential way, work with many senior individuals like yourself. And provide them with the safety of, right, okay, let's just get it all out here. What's going on? How are you feeling? What does that mean? What's the impact that's having on you? How can I help you think about that with the team? And that team can be the organisational performance, whatever it may be. And I guess I suppose, you know, it's hard because we can't name names, but are there any really great examples of leaders that you've seen out there recently that you think are just navigating. times really well. They've got that balance in a good place. Brian Baker: Yeah, I've been really fortunate to have worked with a lot of great leaders. And when I think about, to your point, what they have done that's different is they've created change while also at the same time created change. confidence, and having those two things go together. And my team and I are working right now, like, I think we've established this foundation of performance at the company. We've created clarity in defining it, we've created. Karen Richards: Yeah. Yeah. Brian Baker: And that's where coaching has been incredibly important and really, really critical. quantifiably differentiating for helping our people go fast. And then finally, um, we're… we're at a point where we are strengthening how we do the right look-backs of how that year. progressed, how that person or team contributed, and, um, I think performed, and then how that should feed into what we work on in terms of growing ourselves next. And I think all of that. has been foundational for us, but what I see in our data and where I think to your original point of this question is like, where is it working well? What we need to keep working on is how we improve and evolve the experience our people have with their leader. And in a time where AI is creating disruption amongst all the other disruptions, if we could do that analytically, I could see that we're gonna even, we're gonna perform even better, even faster, and even more together. which I think is really important when it comes to serving clients. Karen Richards: I have this great quote for you, productive disruptors and mindful diplomats. Really great. I think you were quoted as saying that at a conference recently, which plays into that so well. How do you get the speed, get your accuracy, work with what it is? And do you see… I suppose, where does that… where… have you seen recent examples, um, you don't… you can't necessarily name the company, where you know you're hearing where there are organisations absolutely doing that? They've… they've brought it together, they are performing throughout. Have you got, sort of, recent examples of that, that you could share? Brian Baker: Yeah, I think because we're a client service, I hate to name names, but let me tell you some stuff that I think is happening right now that has me really curious and interested. And I think it's this reality that. so… that skills development and skills deployment is getting much more focused and targeted and organizations that see A, leading as a skill, B, inclusion as a skill. And C, knowing your skills and knowing what you want to develop and really delivering on that, those three things coming together, and I think working in service of a talent and people strategy that is directly connected to how a company grows itself and continues to. perform. Like, that's, I think, the secret sauce. And so, I think about, like, this whole thing as a system. We have to be really clear about who is it that we want to find, hire, and welcome into this company. Then knowing who's here and who we're finding, hiring and welcoming, what are our absolute must have priorities around how we're growing and developing people? And it's both the skill of what we do and deliver every day. But it's also the skill of how we do and deliver that and how we show up and lead. And like that's the effective grow and develop piece. And I think this is so important as we think about AI and technology disruption, but how we. know where skills and expertise and experiences exist in our organization, and how we move and mobilize them to the right work is going to be, I think, the piece of this system that becomes invaluable over time. Because work and the work is changing dramatically. So knowing who has done this before, does this well, who wants to learn and know how to do it, and how to mobilize those people to the right work at the right time is important. Part of this system that I think closes it off is the perform and inform part of the system. So having an always on performance mindset at a company and really think about performance as the ultimate act of winning. and winning together, and then informing people about the role they're playing in that winning. And then finally, you know, how we reward and retain people, particularly in a differentiated way based on how they've contributed. So all of that works together. And in the center of that system is the kind of culture, the heartbeat, that delivers it consistently every single day. Karen Richards: Yeah, I mean, you know, you are absolutely on my wavelength when it comes to that. I see… The culture as the fuel of the organization, you think about it's the heart, I think about it as, as the heart and the blood that's, you know, goes around the body. At the end of the day, you don't have anything if you don't have that, if you don't have the fuel to keep everything going, like a car, like any. analogy we could use. So, if you… as you look now out, you know, you and I work in real time, real businesses, lots of meaty challenges going on every day. Um, for me personally, I enjoy the passion, the energy. the focus of the people that I'm working with, I'm working for. I love the diversity, I love that a lot. What sort of… as you go forward, what advice would you give to, maybe. I was gonna say your CEO, but that would be a bit cheeky for Paul, so we won't do that one, and we'll edit that bit out. But what advice would you give to, you know, the CEOs and the senior leadership teams of today in the here and now? Brian Baker: Okay, thank you. Karen Richards: Obviously, you've given a lot of great stuff anyway, but really just literally here and now in terms of what to do more of and what to do less of. Brian Baker: Yeah, I think this is back to where in the role I'm in and even broadly, we have to be both things, disruptive and diplomatic. And so, I think that there's probably no way we can look 3 years out. I used to say 5 or 10 years, but that's, like, not a realistic timeline anymore. I think there's no way we look 2 to 3 years out and say to ourselves that if we do nothing with our leaders, they're still going to be the right leaders for that moment. There's just too much changing. There are new geopolitical pressures that most people haven't had to think about for a really long time, if ever. There are technology capabilities, not just disruptions, but opportunities that if our leaders aren't embracing, if they're not leading and role modeling. then the company is gonna miss out on that big opportunity. And so, like, I think my advice would be to be really clear with the top… Whatever percentage of your company, the top of the house, and have an honest conversation that we want you to stay. the leaders who are the effective people leading the enterprise today. But that requires all of you to really look at yourselves and understand what each of you needs to do to have yourself ready for what's next year and the year after. And the dirty secret about leadership is most people think that they get to the top and they don't have to do this work. They don't have to continuously build themselves. They think they're there. And honestly, sometimes the systems reward that thinking. And so, um, like, my just clear-cut advice on this is to be honest, that if you did nothing, you are not leaders who are fit for the future. And to be there with helping simplify and demystify what every person should be doing. I think every leader needs to. really know and understand themselves deeply. And there are ways to do that, and coaches who can help do that. And I think everybody needs, whether it's a digital version or a human version, everybody needs. they need the x-ray of their own leadership profile, and to understand what they could do to get themselves, I think, more complete. Then every leader needs their own learning plan. And I think that at a minimum, you know, we're not a technology company, we're never going to be an engineering company, but we need every leader to be fluent. in AI's impact on the clients that we show up and serve every day. And we need every leader to be productive and efficient in how maybe some of their work could be better. Delivered… if it were more technology enabled. And then we need every leader to understand that the people that they're responsible and accountable for growing and developing are also looking for answers to these questions. And then we also… I think the third thing is we need leaders to understand that winning still requires us to win together, and they have an ongoing and enduring. obligation around inclusion. Karen Richards: Most businesses I work with are constantly grappling with the pace at which they've either set the objectives that they want to grow at, or they're being required to grow at, or they're running from behind, so they're now trying to catch up. So they've got that element to it. And the pressures that that gives versus the reality of, then, what does that mean? And how do you take everyone with you so, as you say, we're all winning together? So the question this all begs, then, is… The 21st century CPO is a very different version and I think has to evolve further compared to, let's say, the traditional CHRO of maybe 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago. So, what's Brian's vision of your role, and how it will and must evolve to keep up with the demands of business in the coming decade? Brian Baker: Yeah, I think I think the. This is absolutely real and I think the function continues to evolve. But we have to be enterprise architects of the cultural conditions necessary for success. And what I mean about that is we have to get really clear about. Winning at our company requires us to have these behaviors at scale, to take these actions at scale, and to be able to navigate these disruptions productively at scale. And it's why I think about. This notion of the dials of disruptor and diplomat, because I believe that this generation of chief people officers have got to have some sharp elbows. We've got to be able to push ideas. We've gotta operate, like, um… we've gotta operate in one hand, like. line of business leaders like CFOs, maybe like CIOs, and we have to push, we have to be able to insert those perspectives and help the company see something that they may not see otherwise. But then there's also the diplomacy. aspect. We have to be okay with. correlating and connecting multiple perspectives and ideas, and leading people to something we can all rally around in a decisive and actionable way. And we also have to be okay. Helping people who may not agree with that. Become like move from the, you know, I can disagree but commit. And I think that takes a wild muscle of diplomacy and lifting up to be able to help others stay focused and connected as part of. that overall winning team. I think about this reality a lot, that we are either the last. group of Chief People Officers to lead a human-only workforce? Or we are the first group of chief people officers to lead a blended human technology, human machine workforce. And… This is a moment for us. And so I couldn't think of a better time actually to be in. This role to think about the kind of impact we can have, the way we can touch. lives and help build careers. I think also, the last point I'll make, and something that has me, um, I've been spending a lot of time with other people who have this role that I think is an important factor that needs to be in this discussion, which is. you know, the reality around mental health and how we as leaders scale the ability to help people. And I often think that this is a moment where we're gonna have to either teach or remind people. How to care. And that's gonna be something that is so important in this manager-to-employee relationship, is reminding people. How to care. Karen Richards: And maybe defining it. I often come across individuals when we're working through the various aspects of a diagnosis in EQ that are self-diagnostic. People often. confuse and conflate empathy with agreement, with over caring, with acquiescing. And of course, it doesn't need to be any of those things. And you're right. And I do hope that, you know, I do think that this is. a time and a moment for CPOs to be at the start of the first true leaders of where the blend takes place, rather than the last of the fully human. I don't know, I mean, I'd like to hope that it's very much, you know, you're setting the path and setting the direction. for what's coming next. And coming, let's face it, at speed. You know, many think we haven't even seen most of it yet. Brian, any last, anything, any last tips that you'd like to share with us? from your wonderful insights and perspectives, and I particularly, I will go back to, really wanted to ask you, because I love the energy, I love the fact that you have slightly alternative. positions, and even when they're not alternative, you really believe what you believe in, and you're prepared to talk about it, and I think that's a great skill. Many, many don't have it, and they don't have it in enough depth, or they don't know how to evolve it. Maybe that's the question. Maybe the last question to you is. How do we make sure that more leaders can do what you found the way to do, which is speak authentically and be prepared to put your views out there in a way that you believe is for the greater good? How do we help people do that? Brian Baker: Yeah, I do think that part of this next generation of this role is the expectation that you bring a point of view. So I think practicing how you do that, and sometimes like my point of view is maybe… a little too… a little too heavy. Um, but I… I can't help… I can't help as a recovering consultant myself. But I think the other thing is. this notion of being open and curious and flexible and adaptable. I… I can't tell you this… I'm about to hit 4 years in this role, and I cannot tell you how… sort of some of our own culture fuel here at this company, is I bring a perspective around, how can I measure this? How can I measure this? I'm constantly thinking about the measurement piece. Not because of, like, this sort of ROI pressure, though that's really, uh, it's one dimension of it. But it's so important to come to these arguments armed to the point. with that data that only strengthens how you bring a point of view. Karen Richards: I literally was coaching. I was literally coaching this morning exactly on that. A particular client has an influencing challenge and they have their own emotions caught up a little bit in it. And we, we talk through the methodology of. bringing the data and the facts, detaching, you know, the emotion and maybe the personal elements, and then just making sure you bring that as the conversation for the room, and let the rest kind of take its course, but do it in a way. that doesn't close people down, because I think that's where it can be very challenging. Um, Brian, what an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Given that I was rather nervous about this one, I have to say, you made it very easy. It's just been… Perfect. Um, and I really look forward, we're gonna be together anyway, next week, when I'm over in the States with you, and I recognise that view very well. Um, but in the meantime, Brian, thank you so much, uh, and I look forward to seeing you soon. Okay, bye!